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-n -n -n Unknown Speaker 0:09 is April 9 1994, approximately 1015 cent eastern standard time interviewing detective Alice Cheney, Kentucky Highway Patrol and Harlan Kentucky. This tape is being done for the Kentucky Historical SocietyUnknown Speaker 0:34 just like this and you don't feel uncomfortable, okay. I guess the first thing we want to do is talk about how long you've been in the coal fields. Where your parents from here. Did your mom and dad where did they come from Harlan County?Unknown Speaker 0:57 No, I'm originally from Batesville, Kentucky, which is it's over close to Richmond, Kentucky. And I came here in 1982, our State Police Academy and ended up staying. My parents originally from Badal. I came here and live for about three years when my dad's job failed over in Batesville, and they transferred him up here.Unknown Speaker 1:21 What was your if you would tell us what your mother's name and dad's name were and your grandparents on both sides. That'sUnknown Speaker 1:30 my dad's name is George Delbert Cheney senior and then my mother's name is Kathleen Cheney. And then her parents name were Erin and Addy my Purdue. And my dad's parents name were Charlie and Alice Mae Cheney.Unknown Speaker 1:47 And did they come? Have they always been from Kentucky or did they come from somewhere?Unknown Speaker 1:52 My mother's parents came from Ohio to Lake County, Kentucky and then my dad's parents have always been in Lee County.Unknown Speaker 2:02 Okay, now Richmond's, not exactly in the Coalfield. But at the same time, it's not too far from it. No. And so you graduated from high school and what yearUnknown Speaker 2:13 I had graduated from high school in 1977.Unknown Speaker 2:16 And from any went to Eastern Kentucky,Unknown Speaker 2:19 I went to least junior college in Jackson, Kentucky for two years and then I transferred Eastern Kentucky University for a stay down there for three and a half years. And then I got on it to Lexington jail as pretrial release officer and then I got this job.Unknown Speaker 2:36 When you were and you graduated in criminology, I graduatedUnknown Speaker 2:38 with a Bachelors of Science and police ministration from Eastern.Unknown Speaker 2:45 And this was you and then you went to you say your first job was with was with the Highway Patrol was the release officer in Lexington.Unknown Speaker 2:53 No, I was uh, was with circuit court. Well, not the circuit court color. But pretrial release is an office that they may have where you interview prisoners has been arrested. And I did that for eight months waiting to hear from the State Police I'd applied. Before I got that job. I needed a job. So I took that. When, like, whenUnknown Speaker 3:17 did you decide that you wanted to be as likelyUnknown Speaker 3:22 when I was a junior in high school I made up my mind then ask won't be a trooper. I was going to Adtran I started getting really interested in it. I'd say the troopers there around home and admire their uniform. And I admire the fact that they weren't stuck in an office that they could get out. And you know, they might people saw last what I decided I want to be,Unknown Speaker 3:45 but there was no one particular incident that occurred that caused you to say, oh, I want to be a state trooper.Unknown Speaker 3:51 No, just a combination of Yes.Unknown Speaker 3:54 Well, whenever you came, what did you think? And this was a post in here at Harlan. That's your first duty. Why did you think when you got this duty assignment, I'm sure you'd heard tales of bloody Harlan and all that. What did you what what was your vision of what was going to happen?Unknown Speaker 4:12 It first started when we decided we get we're given three posts. When I was in the academy decide where you want to go? Well, I picked Moorhead post hazard post and Harland Well, I got Harlan. I went home that Friday evening and tell my mom and dad I said, Well, I'm on heroin. They said now you're not because at that time was when the sheriff here had just been arrested for the different allegations were made against him. And it was just a real turmoil here and that was what you're now and that teen 82 And I was hesitant, but I was excited because yeah, I knew at least that's gonna be close to home. My worst fear was going to Western Kentucky because I thought well I'll get down there. And I don't know anybody and I don't like Flatland. So I wanted to come stay in eastern Kentucky.Unknown Speaker 5:07 And when you got here, first day on the job, well, first I, first woman to be assigned toUnknown Speaker 5:14 this post and myself and read it barely she was came out of class with me. The same day. Yes, we were both sitting here. And first day, the most vivid playing that I can remember was I drove cross pi mountain and I thought, I'm lost. I'm lost. And I thought, well, I'll go on down the road. And if I don't find the state police pause, pretty soon I turn around, go back. Well, I got down on the bypass here, and I made another trip or car and he went off past me and he just looked at me real funny and well, and not knowing to me, he turned around and got behind me. And we keep our unit numbers on our bumper. And he hollered, he said 325 go to mobile, so I go to mobile. And he says, Where are you going? Well, I'm trying to find the state please post we'll move over and I'll take you out there well, he led me to post I got out and he introduced himself it was Drupal Jack our and he says, You sure do look funny in that uniform? And I thought oh, what am I going for? That's the most vivid thing I remember that daysUnknown Speaker 6:22 getting lost in heaven funny and uniform and well and you but you were with this this other Trooper What was her name Rita barley.Unknown Speaker 6:35 She came here with this she's still a trooper now she retired years ago and she's now so when the insuranceUnknown Speaker 6:46 after you got here, what was your first duty assignment thatUnknown Speaker 6:49 you have was a trip road trip are here in Harlan County? That way? I've worked row for six years.Unknown Speaker 7:00 How do people? Well, let me you know, we started I asked you earlierUnknown Speaker 7:08 coming from over around Richmond. What was it like moving in here and and things you'd heard about Harland or whatever? Did you did you? Were the people like you thought they were going to be were they different than you thought they were going to be were? Did you have any preconceptions or? Or were they different from people that you were used to dealing with at home are the same? Or how were How were the folks onUnknown Speaker 7:37 they were different. I mean, there were a lot more friendly here to me than they were whereas from. But I was real hesitant when I came here because, you know, here I am, I'm a female in a man's job first woman, first woman in eastern Kentucky. And I thought, you know, how are people going to accept me there and I remember going in restaurants with other troopers. And it was like the EF Hutton commercial everybody just stopped what they were doing and look at me and you know, one of my handful people been extremely nasty in here.Unknown Speaker 8:15 And so you did that for six years. And then you said that and how long have you been working now all together? 12 years 12 years? And then you said that you had who was the detective that you started doing case work with?Unknown Speaker 8:26 Detective Jacquard? Yes. IsUnknown Speaker 8:30 he the one that just recently passed away last night? And you said that you started doing detective work and you and you got to be very proficient at it. What was it like your first I guess the would what was your first crime scene that you went out on as a detective was a murder orUnknown Speaker 8:55 Wow well most of the cases I work are not merged but since I've been a detective almost all the murders that's happened I've went to in either been the main investigating officer or just assist it whoever is working on our murders while I was on the road in I just got really good at collecting evidence and you know following up and doing more thanUnknown Speaker 9:23 you do a lot of interviews with people yes call me in and talk to the callUnknown Speaker 9:28 man or I'll go to their house or their job wherever I can findUnknown Speaker 9:32 how do you feel about people when you're interviewing them when you know you've liked you said earlier that that the the bad part of being a detective was you saw people at their worst and death and destruction How do you feel towards the do you get kind of an idea that when you're talking to people do you get an intuition or do you get a feeling of like this is a good person this is a bad person. This is a guilty person. This is an innocent person you canUnknown Speaker 9:59 pretty Each tale who's telling you the truth and who's lying to you, and you can read their body language and just different things that they portray that, you know, you know, well, they're not telling me the truth and or yeah, this is a good person, they're telling me what they know,Unknown Speaker 10:16 or it's a good person in their line to protect somebody else. We get a lot ofUnknown Speaker 10:20 a lot of it. And then there's a lot of people that don't want to get involved for ative repercussions from whoever their tail on on or whatever, and they just don't want to be involved.Unknown Speaker 10:30 So fear is a big, I guess, I guess you get to, in your job now that you have as a detective, you deal with all different kinds of fear, fear of being caught, fear of repercussions fear of involving one of your relatives fear. So, I guess there's all different kinds of fear. So in a sense, what you have to do is become an expert on fear.Unknown Speaker 10:54 You know, you have to learn how to talk to people and get them to trust in you and get them to talk to you just open up. And it's hard to do and some people can't do it. And I've found since I switched over to not being in a uniform, just playing clothes, it's easier for people to talk to me. Well, I remember when I first switched over, I thought, Oh, I hate this. Because I felt like I didn't have that authority anymore that you do when you're in uniform. I hear the uniforms overbearing people, you're you're intimidated by you. And I found now that people talk to me more than I did when I was in.Unknown Speaker 11:33 How do you feel about that? That That? That factor of intimidation? How do you feel? I mean, you're very aware of it. You've just mentioned it? Is it something that you feel comfortable with? uncomfortable for you like, dislike, how do you feel about that?Unknown Speaker 11:48 Well, sometimes the intimidation that you have in that uniform works for you. But most of the time, now that I've noticed it over the years, it works against you more than it does for more than it does for kids, young people are raising their children, you know, then I was doing anything wrong, that placement is gonna get you and I can remember when I was in uniform, going through grocery, and Mommy pushing the little kids and if you don't be good, that place one was gonna get you and I would hate for him to do that. And you know, you're justUnknown Speaker 12:23 sort of creative. Yeah, it created an image of fear, rather thanUnknown Speaker 12:29 police officers supposed to be somebody that you can try. You go for? Yeah, that's not the image.Unknown Speaker 12:37 Well, when you said that you people started trusting you more when you got in plain clothes. Do you think also that it had anything to do with the fact that you were a woman as opposed to being a man that did that make them trust you more? Or do you think? Do you think people talk to women more easily than they do men? Or?Unknown Speaker 12:52 No, I don't. I think a lot of mine is where people have learned my reputation and learned that if you talk to me, I want to tell people if you don't want me to that's a lot of man because people don't want if they don't want to get involved, but they yet they feel that they need to tell yourself and you put a trust across to him say hey, if you don't want your name, don't want. That's a lot of I think why people talk to me more now than I do. BecauseUnknown Speaker 13:24 more than a male or female thing. It's just that they you've built a reputation that whenever you're well, like you were you said all your cases aren't murderers. What are some of your other cases that you will investigate Besides, they after? Well,Unknown Speaker 13:43 this burglaries, child abuse cases, you name it, I get a variety of it, which I did on the road too. But now that's all I do is casework every day is just different cases.Unknown Speaker 13:56 Why would they come to you with those cases as opposed to going to say the sheriff's office?Unknown Speaker 14:01 Well, the State Police has built an image that you know, we do a thorough investigation in mostly the sheriff's departments all they do search warrants and summons essence stuff like that, and they don't have the time to devote to it that we do.Unknown Speaker 14:17 So it's it's, it's it's different than in Tennessee where like most of the cases you just mentioned, a theft case or child abuse that would all be handled by the by the sheriff's office or the city police. The state troopers at home traffic control is 99.9% of their job.Unknown Speaker 14:38 errs you know we're the Kentucky State Police we do everything. I mean, a lot of people think that the troopers out that are a new form. All they do is go out and write tickets and investigate accidents. Well, they don't they do casework. But when you become a detective that's all you do is casework you more or less specialize in it. And you do learn more More on it than what you would be able to use.Unknown Speaker 15:03 What cases do you enjoy working on the most? And then what case do you enjoy working on the least? What kind of caseUnknown Speaker 15:09 the ones I hate the most are child abuse cases it it really bothers me when I say kid abuse. I enjoy working the murder cases, they're saddening, but they're more challenging because you've got more evidence you've got to collect, and you've got to prepare for, you know, court date, where you may be seeking the death penalty against somebody. And there's more involved in those cases than they are just ordinary class burglaries.Unknown Speaker 15:43 I guess one of the things I'm trying to get at is, to a certain degree, you have to be objective, yes. But at the same time, you're a human being, like you said, you don't like to investigate child abuse cases. How do you react? How do you react? Like, say, for instance, when I'm sure there have been times when you there were people that had been guilty of murder, and you knew they were guilty? And you just couldn't prove it? Or they got away? Or got off on a technicality? Or what how does that make you feel? It'sUnknown Speaker 16:12 really frustrating. I mean, you know, especially if you go to court, and the jury turns and was like, well, what's the use even going out here trying that, you know, and then you have to sit back and think and regroup and say, Well, you know, I'm out here to do this job. And I've got to give everybody my best. It's real frustrating when you lose case.Unknown Speaker 16:32 Sense. You kind of represent the community. And as the community chooses to do that, there's really not muchUnknown Speaker 16:38 to that. I know, some of the new troopers that come in, they'll get so frustrated when they lose a drunk driving case. And I'll say, yeah, they take it personally. Well, yeah, I used to when I was on the road anymore, I've learned, you know, well, that's the way they wanted it. And I look, well, I've done my job at that time. And, you know, whatever the jury decides, that's what I'll live with.Unknown Speaker 17:00 You know, one of the things that that we've noticed, or that I've noticed, is people are very, in Eastern Kentucky are very aware of politics. And everything seems to be very political. And how has that affected you in your job? Have you had times when, when, because of politics, you just had to back off, or?Unknown Speaker 17:26 I've never encountered? I've been, I've had people try to influence me with politics to do an investigation. But yeah, I don't.Unknown Speaker 17:36 But they don't try to Well, I guess you're saying they do try.Unknown Speaker 17:40 Yeah, they'll try that.Unknown Speaker 17:46 And that's you like, yes, let's see. Well, let's see. Tell us about I guess about you most interesting case, what's the most interesting case?Unknown Speaker 18:04 Well, the most interesting one is one I can't discuss in real great detail right now because it's getting ready to trial. But I've got a case that happened March the 25th of last year, where two juveniles from Michigan came down here. They want in on elderly lady here in the community in a beater today. And we're gonna be seeking the death penalty against a 10 year old and a 16 year old. That's been my most interesting one so far.Unknown Speaker 18:33 What made it interesting was it was it difficult to catch them or?Unknown Speaker 18:37 Well, no, it wasn't so much that it was just unique in that they were they came down here from a different state. They were living right next door to this lady. And it was the most severe beating case I've ever seen in my career. And most of the people that have been here, say is the most severe that they've seenUnknown Speaker 18:58 these these young men that came in and did this or allegedly were they were they out migration and came back? Or were they just kids that had always lived in Michigan,Unknown Speaker 19:10 Michigan, they just had an acquaintance here and came down to spend withUnknown Speaker 19:14 no family here. But the acquaintance wasn't involved in it.Unknown Speaker 19:19 Well, he's involved to a certain extent he was involved in the actual murder that we can prove so far.Unknown Speaker 19:27 So that's case is going to trialUnknown Speaker 19:30 starts made several times.Unknown Speaker 19:33 So how do you feel about you think you've got a good case?Unknown Speaker 19:40 Let's see. Funny things funny things that you've had. They're bound to be.Unknown Speaker 19:50 People keep telling me when I especially in that class, that's when I tell some experiences I've had you have to write a book your book, but some most vivid ones. I had a guy when that I pulled up. This was while still working in uniform pulled up, he dropped the Ronnies truck in the South Mountain, got out of the car and put in the field sobriety test. And I said, Sir, you're under arrest for Dr. Hammond. He looked at me and he said there's no damn woman going arrest me. And I said, now sir acid at home I'll try was to get in the car place. And, you know, I was being polite and asked, he says, I told you, you know, damn woman's going to arrest me. And he called me a bad name and picked him up and threw him out of the trunk of the cruiser. And I went around the sadness and now sir, get in the car. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. And he was crawling. funny at the time, and then you look back, I've had people arrested to try to fat me not known as a woman because they were so drunk, and one boy one out and running down. He tried to hit me and got him handcuffed. We get to the jail. He realized as a woman, he started crying and got down on his knees and beg for forgiveness little things like that.Unknown Speaker 21:21 Let's see. Have you we were talking about fear. What's it? Have you ever been afraid out there? And if you have one, what was the worst? You've been afraid?Unknown Speaker 21:30 Yeah, I've always told my class if you run up on police officer City's never been afraid. He sees a fool or he's crazy. Because there's times out there you're deathly afraid and have been shot at remember when that mean? Another Trooper pulled up to complain about a drunk shooting when we pulled out and gunfire star Kevin Nash and we were both hitting in the creatureUnknown Speaker 21:57 fight each other for space a little smaller than you are as well. Did you did you have you ever had shoot anybody?Unknown Speaker 22:07 No. I pull my gun and nothing close several times but I've never had to yet now.Unknown Speaker 22:13 Whenever you pull your gun that generally ends the argument right there.Unknown Speaker 22:18 chased into his driveway and he bought a shotgun. Had it pointed answer yes. And I was getting ready to let hammer down on my revolver and his son jumped in between us and I pulled back and he took the gun away from his dad. I'd probably killed it because he was livingUnknown Speaker 22:39 well it's fortunate she didn't shootUnknown Speaker 22:44 I accidentally when I seen him coming through my peripheral vision I knew that he was gonna jump there from start to let the whole time lighten his dadUnknown Speaker 22:54 because of what happened and what was the eventual result of that if you try him for felonious assault.Unknown Speaker 22:59 Well, now he he pled guilty to wanton endangerment for pointing the gun at me and then drunk driving. Yeah, thank you stop right now suspended license video ever apologized. He apologized to me court. He said Astra didn't want us toUnknown Speaker 23:19 drink it drinking. It sounds like from the from what we're hearing here that that drugs, primarily alcohol are involved in many years. What percentage would you say, of cases that you've been involved with? Where apple? Is it a real high percentage, let'sUnknown Speaker 23:40 say there's 85 90% of every case that I'm involved in, especially now. Right? There's either alcohol or drugs andUnknown Speaker 23:49 how do you deal that's the one thing that always amazed me, like say, for instance, as a juror at home when they try these cases? You know, they've actually had people stand up in court say, I was drunk and they were drunk when none of us know what happened. Now, how is the jury when everybody that was there to know what happened? How am I supposed to figure out what happened? You know, that always amazed me? How do you do that? When you're How do you try to sort it all out when you get there? And everybody is either drunk or was drunk or you know well,Unknown Speaker 24:21 I can remember a murder case I had last year when it's been two years ago I'm sorry to there was a card game going on. Everybody there was drunk. Man shot his son killed when we got there, everybody was gone. And we were you know what happened? And you have to sit down in your reconstruct what happened just from what you see. They're insane. And I've always told them me I'd rather come to a murder scene that night. You know find me then don't wait till next day because I can't get the feel of what happened. If I'm not there and see it just as it will clean the scene up and you know, just it's not the same as just after it happened. We went to that scene and yeah, there's like I said, there's nobody there. Tell us what, hey, just the body. Well, the body would have been tagged in the hospital, all we had was blood and holes and bullet holes in the walls. And, you know, we had one of the troopers that had talked to the guy that had actually done the shooting and had arrested him and took him to jail for disorderly conduct because he had followed the ambulance to the hospital to start causing the same. Well, we started piecing together and we finally figured it out. You know, he's got drunk, he shot off one gun and 50 debt and then went got another one and his son had been in the beta sleet and come and asked him to say, you know, please stop, because I'm trying to get some sleep and he's shouting.Unknown Speaker 25:59 Did he ever when you question him, did he do he confess andUnknown Speaker 26:03 yes, he How did he feel about how he's he's great remorse.Unknown Speaker 26:08 This was when he was drunk.Unknown Speaker 26:12 He's a lot of it. He said played on Vietnam. He would have been Vietnam. Sam flashbacks. He's now um, did you believe that? Yes. Just I mean, he was very honest with this woman interviewed.Unknown Speaker 26:27 And so you got a real good feel that he was telling you the truthUnknown Speaker 26:29 and he told us what he could remember what had happened. He could remember that becauseUnknown Speaker 26:40 more funny things you've found I've had a lot ofUnknown Speaker 26:43 some of them Fred Taylor'sUnknown Speaker 26:45 change that you can change the names. I wouldn't useUnknown Speaker 26:49 the names I've had experiences where well right after I get detained pulled out of my driveway upon Kremlin road. And got out got my mail and I sit in or wait for this line of traffic to go. Well, this can the last car looks at me real funny. Just uh, you get to sixth sense about you after you've been the chef or something wrong with this character. Well, he goes on down the road coming toward heartland and there's this little pull off and he pulls off up in the air and he parks his car just as close to the woods as he can. He gets out and he comes back down to the edge of the road. Well, I pulled out my driveway and when I start buying he says he's using the bathroom, but he shakes itself. Oh, my God. My three Sharan go back to you at the scouting his crew and his car. But this time it takes off. hard on them in pursuit. Yeah, that's real unusual. Take his car getting pursuit. And they said, Why in pursuit and I tell him the car description. They said, Well, what's he done? I said, Well, Harlan, he's Winnie WAG, mate. That's only why I'mUnknown Speaker 28:18 so mad. Dre loans fallen. When I went out to the car, I just jerked him out the window. She was in the bathroom, I should nowUnknown Speaker 28:31 let me ask you this, how on the ticket? How do you write up when anyway?Unknown Speaker 28:36 Exposure andUnknown Speaker 28:39 integrate. Always get a kick out. Or you can tell when you can tell when an officer's really mad. Whenever, in the court records, you'll see running a stop sign speed resisting arrest and they've got like 12 charges there. But they've got a rare thing but possibly get themUnknown Speaker 29:02 to my class.Unknown Speaker 29:06 Now, let's get into that. Let's get into the idea of you teaching. How do you what do you look for in in your students? That? Do you try to identify those that you think will really be a goodUnknown Speaker 29:23 sale, which ones I've been teaching for five years now and I can tell which ones won't be you know, police officers or in criminal justice. And then there's some that just take the class to see what they can get away with? Which they think that I'm going to tell them you know, the different avenues that they can use to commit crimes. You think they're doing it? Yeah, I know. Some of them are. You can tell.Unknown Speaker 29:47 That's interesting. They just they see it as an opportunity to spy on bullies. Well, the ones that what is it that you see in us in a student that let you know know that they're going to be that they're going to do it and stick with it be good at it? Well,Unknown Speaker 30:07 the ones that come to class every night, the ones that sit in the front of class and ask questions, and the others that they're interested but well, you know, I may want to do some may not, but there's some and they've been in every one of my classes so far. And I keep getting more questions and more in depth as they learn this field. And you can tell they're gonna be good troopers.Unknown Speaker 30:33 How much of it you think can be taught and how much of it is just is it like everything else you can, you can teach so much, but then a lot of it is just on the jobUnknown Speaker 30:42 training, job training, because I've learned a lot. Like I said, I've got a college degree. And I've took several hours since I graduated from college. You know, I've learned a lot more out here doing it. And that's one of the things I've been doing up here at SE is I've been teaching a lab class where I let them have hands on experience. What do you let them do? Well, I'll little fingerprint one, their little desk for fingerprints on coke cans and different things like that. They get a kick out. Oh, yeah. And then I've got that last class where I'll let him go out and pretend to pull a car over and go deal with the driver.Unknown Speaker 31:21 Are you getting into this DNA testing a lot? That to me, that seems like that's gonna be a realUnknown Speaker 31:27 I've had I've got one case right now it's set for trial in May. We're gonna ripe suspects that they use DNA and matched.Unknown Speaker 31:37 It comes back. It's like there's no, there's no way it could be anybody.Unknown Speaker 31:42 It's gonna be interested in this case that I've got set for trials, only the second one in Kentucky so far, or DNA has been used in trials gettingUnknown Speaker 31:51 person pleading innocent. Yes. He's always gonna be his word against the DNA. Yes. I honestly, I don't see how, as a jury, I mean, that's, that's something that you just could you know, now, do you see them? I know, there's a big question now about whether they should do DNA testing on all convicts coming out of prison. What are they going to do in Kentucky with that you think you thinkUnknown Speaker 32:18 they're gonna do it? They're talking about it, but I don't know. ThereUnknown Speaker 32:22 seems to me to make a great deal of sense if at if, if 5% of the criminals can, you know, go out and commit 80% of the crimes that if you could figure out you could cheer slow down on the crime real quick. In terms of the cases that you investigate here Have you all had many I know lately in Tennessee, metabolize 711 video store killings, and those kind of have you had those kinds of things here yet or, or has has your caseload tended to, to remain kind of constant with the same kind of cases? Do you see anything really strange and bizarre and new coming at you? Or is it all pretty much the same stuff just over and over rightUnknown Speaker 33:03 now, it's pretty much the same. You know, I'm noticing an increase right now where we've had crack cocaine get into this area. About a year a little over a year, maybe in the I've noticed this in burglaries are starting to pick up the but as far as the murders, and like, we were discussing it here at pelsall. Today, we've went over a year, and it's unusual in Harland without a murder. The last one was March 25, the last yearUnknown Speaker 33:32 where I'm from and cross what we've got in criminal count, we've got 11. And so murders that were mentioned on Paul Harvey, if you wanted to kill somebody go to jail. But mostly, it's been drug related and cousins killing cousins and some guy that had killed his grandmother, you've probably heard about this when he had killed his grandmother in Michigan, that led him out of a mental institution said he was no longer crazy. He came to Tennessee and was living at the DeRossett and attacked a family with a butcher knife and kill the mother and two or three of the kids and others afterward. They were just butchered. And now they they tried him the other day, and I think they gave him like a million. But we've had a bunch of them. So you're saying that it's pretty much the same? What do you see? Okay, are you in the in terms of you know, everybody's concerned about violence all over the United States? is Harlan County in particularly is it more violent than what you see and say in Richmond or others in less violentUnknown Speaker 34:42 when, you know, Harlan gets reputation, you know, bloody Harlan, because there's a lot of murders here. But it's since I've been here, there's not been that many. I mean, you know, we have our share, and there's a little thing in here. You know, when you get one you're gonna get at least two more because it runs in threes. But we've not had that many that I can tell any difference. I know where I'm from there and Lake County, they've had more murders there than I have here like,Unknown Speaker 35:12 so. So in terms of violent crime, you're still seeing mostly drunk driving child abuse and theft is like your three.Unknown Speaker 35:24 That's the majority rat nail that's going on. Yeah.Unknown Speaker 35:30 What do you see as a solution? Is there so you know, everybody says, what, we've got to solve it? Is there a solution to crime? Or are you always going to have a certain amount of crime?Unknown Speaker 35:40 We're gonna always have it. I mean, what especially you know, you've got drugs in the money that the drug dealers get is tax free. In you know, you've got kids looking at well, look, this drug data. Yeah, he's got all this money. He's got these fancy cars and homes. Yeah. Washington. I do this. mean, yeah, that's a big thing. You've got the drugs and alcohol that'sUnknown Speaker 36:04 gonna see this. Do you see the same kind of syndrome happening here that's happened in the ghettos already kids are looking at these people, and saying, Why should I work at McDonald's? When I can drive a Cadillac? You know, are you starting to see that? Yeah, we're turning into roleUnknown Speaker 36:20 models. You can see it in the kids. Yeah. Because most of the things the kids see now, you know, they want money, they want cars, fancy cars, and that's the easiest route to get.Unknown Speaker 36:33 Do you have you had any? Are you having any luck against drugs here? Or is it like everywhere else you get 197? Go free?Unknown Speaker 36:42 We've We've got people that are constantly buying drugs from drug dealers, and then we'll arrest them and you know, they'll get provided and they go right back at you bunch to take their place. It's a never ending.Unknown Speaker 36:54 Because there's so much money. Yeah. Are you saying you said crack was Who is that? What would you say your is, is? Crack marijuana, heroin? Cocaine? What's your biggest drug problem here that you would see thisUnknown Speaker 37:05 one? Is marijuana. Do more with it? And then you've got your cocaineUnknown Speaker 37:11 with the kids? Or is that tend to be the drug? Yeah,Unknown Speaker 37:13 the marijuana is the biggest thing right now. And then you've got your pills, and then they go to cocaine.Unknown Speaker 37:24 So you don't actually see a solution, just just continuing education. So you do a lot of that in a school you go out and schools andUnknown Speaker 37:30 well, when I was public affairs officer for a year, that we did a lot of that, you know, went to the different key. We've got several officers here now and I hope in June and I'll be able to go to the Dyer instructors training the drug abuse awareness program that we have for you go into the schools and teach this kids about drugs.Unknown Speaker 37:54 Do you know if if theory about drug addiction and alcohol addiction is corrected? You know, if you if you've got a genetic tendency toward it, you're a certain amount of people are going to end up being addicted. How do you how do you say that fitting into the idea of education? Or do you buy into that theory? Do you believe that? I mean, you see, of course you see families, you know, generation after generation?Unknown Speaker 38:23 Well, one thing you gotta look at kids right now, most of them are from two parent working homes, and they're raising their selves. And if you don't teach them in school, they're not going to learn it anywhere else. Because once they get out off of school during the day, they go home. And yeah, parents are not there to tell them. No, this is right. And this is not and it's not the parents fault that they've got to survive that way by having two parents working. But to athletic that it's helping I can see a change are starting to change the kids and how they're dealing with the drugs.Unknown Speaker 39:01 So you see some of them as as being able to say no, I've got a teenage daughter at 16. I think in the last month, we've already been through our first our first drink and our first joint I'm goingUnknown Speaker 39:20 yeah, that's just normal for dads, they're gonna experiment. But I can see a difference in them. Where, you know, they are like, well, it's alright to say no to these people. Yeah, we don't have to do it just to get along. whereas years ago, yeah, like that. Well, I've got you're gonna say you say I'm big chicken. But you don't see that as much now as you used to.Unknown Speaker 39:45 You mentioned earlier when you said that you've kind of gotten by being so proficient at solving crimes you kind of been forced into being a detective. How, what's the if you would tell us the major The difference you've noticed about this job as to being a uniformed officer, and when you say you want to go to dare, does that mean like full time? Stop? No.Unknown Speaker 40:11 Now we're just part time, I just want to that part. The biggest difference from GM and off the road to doing this, when you're out there in a marked car, and in a uniform, you get to drive around. If you want to stop somebody and give them a ticket or a warning, you can do it. And you get okay. So everyone's swollen and they accident. In this what I'm doing now, you know, all I do is do compliance on different cases, like RMA sit back here all day and do paperwork and not get a case. Or I might get a case and have to go work it and not get another one. Or I might have five or six a day. It just depends. And you're not out to patrol and meet and people like you do when you're in uniform.Unknown Speaker 40:55 So you so the contact with people is the thing that you miss. Yeah. Now, what do you like the most aboutUnknown Speaker 41:02 the most about this job back here, I like that you're on set schedule, you get set days off. You know, if you don't want to get out and do nothing, you could sit back here and just do paperwork, catch up on it. But if you get somebody you gotta go interview, you can't. You're not as limited as you are when you're in uniform.Unknown Speaker 41:23 So you got you got a bigger degree of flexibility as a trooper as on a mark card, Mark. I started I was thinking whenever you were like I told you I got this ticket last week. What's the best excuse you've ever had? That that somebody gave you for? When you when you pull them over for speeding? What was the best one you ever had that you said this is gotta be true?Unknown Speaker 41:51 I can't remember what I ever thought was true. Yeah, I've had some really unique ones. The biggest one that pops out my mind was a cock this guy doing 85 on that and he says, bout to run out of gas. I gotta hurry. To hear everything in you know from I've got to go the bathroom to you know, my babies See, had one girl on that. I have got to go to the hospital. I'm there to have a baby. Why don't you go to Ashley to you know she was a prayer.Unknown Speaker 42:25 So, so you've never actually had one that you really believe that there was a legitimate excuse. I know when I got my ticket last week, the guy walked up to the car and I threw my hands up. I said, I'm guilty. And you know, usually they say, Well, did you do your walk? If you were going 7455 He says I hadn't given you a ticket. Okay.Unknown Speaker 42:54 That's one thing I never did the tail. Nobody has given me go back and do it. Yeah. Give him the opportunity to argue no.Unknown Speaker 43:04 But the thing that made me upset about it was it was the only time on the whole trip. I've been speeding, and we've gone from the interstate from the to the 55. And I was I mean, I should have seen it, but I just did and they got me. But anyway, it was a do you get a real? You see, this obviously is a real people job.Unknown Speaker 43:36 Is this what you want to do for the rest of your life? Do you want to be a trooper? Do you do you have what's your other goals that you have? Do you have like?Unknown Speaker 43:44 Well, what I'm looking at right now, I can't see myself staying in this job till I'm 60 years old. And what I'm looking at right now is finishing my master's degree up maybe getting a full time teaching job and college, and then maybe start my own private investigation and security account later on.Unknown Speaker 44:04 So now does does does the Kentucky State Patrol does it have like a 20? Year and out or yes,Unknown Speaker 44:10 we got a 20 year retirement, which you know, I love this job and I wouldn't take anything and work for it. But there's just not that much money. And if I keep telling the people that are in my classes, if you're trying to get in state police to make money, you're in the wrong business. Job. Yeah, I've been on 12 years now not just $25,000 this year. And you know, when you look at your Trend, like I just bought a home and it's hard from payday to payday on that count. Anyhow, people said well, you'd stay busy you teach and you didn't ask good job and I've even been looking furtherUnknown Speaker 44:54 than you when you say you're going to do maybe in private so that would mean like in eight years then you You couldUnknown Speaker 45:01 really save on because I've got some sick time build up.Unknown Speaker 45:05 Have you? Have you finished your master's work? Okay, so when do you think you'll get that?Unknown Speaker 45:12 Well, it just depends like, last year or last summer I was supposed to take classes during the intercession summer school and I didn't get to that. Just a job and different things that went on. I just didn't get to go. Just depends on how yourUnknown Speaker 45:27 caseload is. How much What do you want it when you get through? Do you want to teach it SE? Do you want to teach?Unknown Speaker 45:35 They're trying to get it to your law enforcement program as athletes, I'd like to goUnknown Speaker 45:41 it'd be great for you. Let's see. I think we've covered everything, Adela. Before we quit one last thing, your chance to tell the world. Whatever you want to tell what? One statement, what if you summed up your career and everything in one and your life? What would you say? You know, what would youUnknown Speaker 46:12 it's been the most enjoyable time of my life being here in Harlan and doing working for the state place. Yeah, I've seen a variety of everything. You get everything that you can imagine. And all my parents get upset with me sometimes when I go to visit them. They want to discuss the work and I don't want to fool with it when I'm away from it. Yeah, because I tell them Yeah, you see the worst of everything in this job, but you still see some good in the end, but you don't want to discuss it. And I've done a lot of reading and research about you know, the stresses placed on police officer I was gonna askUnknown Speaker 46:49 you about that. Do you feel? How do you handle stress? I feel like you're just you just start early feel comfortable. It takes a while and it is. It can be pretty threatening. You know, some guy show up with a camera that doesn't work. Which he still hasn't fixed I might as well it won't take me longUnknown Speaker 47:24 What do you do you say you go work out? What are your hobbies? What kinds of things do you do? You listen to music? What kind of music do you like listen toUnknown Speaker 47:33 live. Like right now if you'd get my house I've put the stereo still on Debbie. Okay. That's about the only thing that you can keep that in the mountains here. That'll come in at an optional. Listen to that all the time. I fish every once awhile. I used to raise cocker spaniel pups, but I've got outlet I've been so busy lately. I can't give them the attention. I need to but I've got five dogs still started walking? And I'm gonna try to start around horses ifUnknown Speaker 48:08 you'd like horses Yeah, follow us leftUnknown Speaker 48:31 Yeah, I felt inferior to them because they didn't want us here. And I made up my mind, you know, they're just gonna have fire me to get rid of me.Unknown Speaker 48:42 So you felt like when you first got here then that there was some initially there was a lot of resistance toUnknown Speaker 48:46 you. Well, yeah, there was and there still is from some of the older units has been on yours.Unknown Speaker 48:52 But you don't the younger guys, you don't feel likeUnknown Speaker 48:55 no, no, there's females. But most of the younger guys came to me to learn how to do something for us.Unknown Speaker 49:05 What do you that initial? hostility, I guess or how did you how did you deal with it? Did make you angry? Or didUnknown Speaker 49:18 yeah, I was real bitter. And I wouldn't have anything to do with the ones that and some of the ones that are still all that you know, like that. I'm not good enough to be in this job. I still have much to do with them. Yeah, all system if I have to, you know very trouble. Yeah, I'm not saying that. It's just that.Unknown Speaker 49:38 Do you think that they did their fear was founded in the idea that hey, if I'm out there and I'm about to get shot, she's not gonna help.Unknown Speaker 49:47 Well, you got men in this job. You know that or feel superior to everybody else. And when you got a woman coming in that can do the job just as good or better than them.Unknown Speaker 50:02 They're Macho.Unknown Speaker 50:04 If you're your TV, and they resent that, whatUnknown Speaker 50:09 do you think it makes them better troopers though to, to? To not be so? Well, maybe arrogance to work, you know? Maybe it makes you less quite as arrogant.Unknown Speaker 50:19 Well, you know, I work with a lot of the units here now. And yeah, they think that, you know, I want to take credit for stuff, you know, I could care less you sell the job gets done, and he gets done, right. That's what I'm worried. But then you've got some that, you know, well, I'm gonna do this, and I don't need your help. But I've got 90% lean it, so come to me. So how do you do this? Yeah, inUnknown Speaker 50:43 terms of of your role as Detective I know you have different job duties. But does it also mean that you're like, like, say, the sergeants or the troopers that you're like their boss? I mean, can you go out say, Well, I think you're goingUnknown Speaker 50:58 well, when, when I'm going to go to a murder scene. And you know, I'm going to be the investigating officer. It's my saying, they've got to do what I'll tell them to, or they get out of it. And it's just like, I tell my lieutenant, my sergeant here the day the last murder scene I went to was, it was really this oriented, had a lot of confusion. And I told him I said, I'm not going through that again. Unless Well, you shouldn't and you should. Yeah. And as well there was two supervisors there they should have took care of the problems we were having and I didn't and that's it for now on will tell him about it. Because you know, you get that fear Well you tell him that you're gonna get repercussions when you get away from the scene and get back but they told me they said well this that's you're saying you've got to stay at go on the stand and testify about you do what you feel nursery which I have made up my mindUnknown Speaker 51:52 within in terms of like the day to day way things work here you're not necessarily an administratorUnknown Speaker 51:59 No, no, I'm not administrator soUnknown Speaker 52:01 and that that in a sense maybe helps you with your co workers and they Oh yeah, like yeah your Lord you knowUnknown Speaker 52:13 I know one thing that helps a lot too. I'll quit what I'm doing if somebody comes and asked me how to do something like can't believe that I put aside all the work that I've got just helped meUnknown Speaker 52:33 We're just watching a lot that we're not telling any secrets. keeping quietUnknown Speaker 52:51 now, my son he wants to he's mentioned being a policeman. And he like has absolutely no respect for rules. And I had thought is this the kind of person that wants to be you know, I can't obey the rule so I'll be the guy that makes this did you get some of that element? Some of the Charlie Norris element Yeah.Unknown Speaker 53:18 Now there's there's a few that I've seen come through this post. And there's been several I mean, you get units come in here that are from little one different places and all emotes get tail out here because I hate Harl. But there's there's some that's coming in. Yeah. And you know, I'll tell my classes I'll say Now look, if you're in as you go find a lot of authors, it's got Matt Dillon or John Wayne syndrome. Yeah, bullets can't hurt me. So that's not right. Because it can it can hurt them just as much as anybody else. You see a lot officers like that. Know, I had one student asked me one time they said well, so you're you betray the state police to be everything. That's well, that's who I work for. And acid. They are a little more high quality than some police departments. And I said, but it's just like any other organization. We've got our bad apples to. I don't ever try to deny that. We just had an officer that resent that get convicted of sexual assault while he was on duty. So yeah, you've got bad apples and everything.Unknown Speaker 54:30 That's interesting. How did how did how didUnknown Speaker 54:40 that's an area that you know, I teach in college, that's an area that's really a big deal. And it's reached the point that I'm almost afraid to even ask one of my students to have a cup of coffee.Unknown Speaker 54:53 This luck here you can tell a difference. We've had no memorandums come down, saying no Social oriented jokes being told no posters or, you know, cartoons or anything. And they all it was real there for a week or two after that put the supervisors through the sexual harassment training, try for it, I noticed they were fly. They wouldn't hardly talk to any of the female.Unknown Speaker 55:25 They were accused of harassment. What I guess what I'm saying is what did. I'm not even interested in who it was. But what happened that made it a harassment rather than just poor taste, or, wow,Unknown Speaker 55:38 this occurred just from reading the paper, one of the sergeant's sexually assaulted one of the dispatchers and one of the post. It was just, it's real, and it's still going on, you know, he was convicted, but it's stillUnknown Speaker 55:57 it's like a right. Oh, okay. It wasn't a they've had two or three cases at home where officers were like trying to trade tickets for favors and things like that. But I know the way the laws written the laws written is that some harm has to come out of this, you know, but yet, on the other hand, I'm about to enter a Ph. D. program in the fall and Bowling Green, Ohio. And I know that I'm about to be faced with the other end of the spectrum, which is if well, how dare you, you look at that, you know, you've got this other end of the spectrum where it's a look, a gesture is perceived as you're in a position of power and authority. And anything you do is, is so I don't you know, it's really a it's an area that confuses me, frankly, and how do you deal with it? And does it confuse you?Unknown Speaker 56:51 My biggest problem, you know, you've got the unit's here. And I have I've been sexually harassed and on this job by my co workers, but yeah, I look at adage, tell him where I stand in you. Just leave me alone. Because I can remember when I first came here, every time I turned around, there's one of them wanted me to go with him to take a female for a polygraph. And I'd have to search somebody's female that they'd raised and I went to his cat and I said look, I never heard on this job for Matron asked if I wanted that I could have stayed at a jail and I said no, I'm not I'm Trooper just like they are and they did without before I came on this job. And I said they may do and they're still going after that. And I will never forget I had triple one that he came out of my class with me. Y'all are tested sentry 25 appear I need her to help me again at Tori's at me at this naked woman and he says I need you searcher as well. What in the hell do you want me to search?Unknown Speaker 57:54 There's obviously there's nothingUnknown Speaker 57:58 at all you know? I don't know I'm leaving. I left your standard this naked woman I don't know what he was wanting search but you know you have situationsUnknown Speaker 58:10 there was a situation similar to that they had a guy and I remember nikecourt In Nashville, they had him the hidden in the Tennessee and where he said that he that they had arrested him for sitting naked in a laundromat and when they took him up to the in front of the judge he told the judge he said I was just washing my clothes and I've only got one set of clothes and the judge let him go it was like four in the morning and he said I waited till I thought no it made sense to him I guess you know if you're gonna watch him and you only got one set you got to take a walk somebody came in and had him arrested for indecentUnknown Speaker 58:48 break a lot of them are not any around here yeah the unit so they'll make sexual jokes and then the terminal and see me there and I'll pop off I had you know something back about it. It it first is real strange to him. You know like and well women do this in they've got more comfortable about it. ButUnknown Speaker 59:08 do you think that a lot of it just has to do with women not being as straightforward as you are where they just say hey look, I don't like thisUnknown Speaker 59:21 that anything I eat you can tell the people that are that don't like that in your yard respect that go live from a carrier that they might be somebody that don't like stiff luck and so Hey, get out there sat so they won't complain on you. Yeah, you don't have to do it in front of them and then worry about whether or not they're gonna tail on yours.Unknown Speaker 59:47 Well, it's certainly the and the reason I spent some time on it's a real issue now.Unknown Speaker 59:52 It's become a big issue here andUnknown Speaker 59:56 well, because certainly because of this case Now obviously that was a that's an obvious thing. I guess what I was thinking about was some of these other issues you've touched on where it's less obvious. And you know, more difficult to Well, I think we've pretty much done here. Do you want to take any more pictures?Unknown Speaker 1:00:28 Afterwards you saw or you gotta take off to do that you want to teach her?Unknown Speaker 1:00:32 No, I'm off until Monday and I'm wandering off.Unknown Speaker 1:00:37 We just came here studio was on forest Avenue. Where do you go to Knoxville a lot when you go.Unknown Speaker 1:00:44 Not a whole lot. I've just started in the last year. So good places to eat plan. We're going to meseta for one the dispatchers. And so our friends are all loading up going to Rodeo dinner thatUnknown Speaker 1:00:56 oh, yeah, heard about that. That's where, yeah, we're Miss Rodeo USA is I've heard her announcing on. I listened to Debbie ibk. And she was you know, come to the rodeo. If you ever go to eat down there go to hawk eyes. It's a great, they have great food and it's not that expensive. The salad? Yeah. And so on 17th Street and then down in the Old City. We I've always gone down to what's it? Cajun Grail?Unknown Speaker 1:01:37 Essay. I was down there last week and we went to litens. We went there everyUnknown Speaker 1:01:47 year. And they got Cancun there. Yeah, there's one, too. It's a little chain. Mexican family. Oh, I've been they got one Crossbowman Cancun if you like Mexican. Oh, it's fabulous. And it's not and it's not any red fried ice cream. Yeah. OhUnknown Speaker 1:02:07 my god go. When I go to Lexington. Cheese. I have it.Unknown Speaker 1:02:13 Last night I either I my favorite. I always get beef chimichangas Yeah. And then for dessert. I either get fried ice cream or soap appears. Yeah. You read that. So you know. It's like It's like flour, potato chips that have been sweetened. And they pour cinnamon and butter over it and boys still need it my whole family life likes Mexico. We took stir fry JPS it is his studios in an old church. Yeah. And he's got it fixed up and we got nice kitchen grill. Yeah, he got he's always getting stuff. When people when people he shoots a lot of industrial shots and when he gets done shooting if they just give him this and I came home one day and he gave me a bag of of Tootsie Rolls here's like five here he they told me to just keep and he got this you know these charcoal grills he's got one got to two sidebars on it. I mean it gets the Cadillac charged to the shot well, he gets the but most of the love is industrial stuff. Stuff you wouldn't even know what it was I usually look at it's like what's this it's semiconductors and things like that from radio lights up. Nashville's an interesting town I like it. You know it's it's it's funny when I go to Nashville. I never feel safe in Nashville. But when I go to Knoxville, I've never felt unsafe and you don't I mean, you don't get to every now and then somebody's fine but it's like you're just overwhelmed by like you're in Nashville anything you know you're out to get shot dead just for walking down the street. And it happens a lot. You know, like every day.Unknown Speaker 1:04:21 That's what I've quit going less than as much. carjackings gangs are starting to shoot people andUnknown Speaker 1:04:30 I almost got either robbed or carjacked or you don't want to go to Knoxville college over to see Yvonne some some look like a 16 year old kid he had on shorts and tennis shoes and a jacket. And he was leaned up against the building. And he had his hand and his jacket pocket and I've got that little red sports car and I was sitting there at a red light by the projects. And he came walking right towards me and I looked at him and a police cruiser pulled up down at the red light and the minute he saw that police cruiser he went and started walking I'm honestly I believe that he was either gonna rob here or because he had his hand in his pocket. What's he doing? And but that's the only time I've ever had anything. And then when he turned and went I thought now why did he do that?Unknown Speaker 1:05:16 That's what my parents I was worried about me traveling light at that. I've always got two or three cannons. So it's me. Yeah.Unknown Speaker 1:05:24 Let's see when we were coming home from up here. Got through the beer house from the overpass and I just have to see it and somebody rock was it that same overpass big concrete block that they threw to kill the guy with his accident. That night that we were through there. I saw the I saw the guy. I just have to see him he was he raised his arm and we were in the left hand lane. I just flipped over on the right hand lane and he threw it and it went right where we would have been would have hit right on the windshield. But I was I was ready to go back at from JP they may have a gun but it made meUnknown Speaker 1:06:13 arrested three little juveniles one time that we're spending on the class throwing water balloons off. And yeah, shouldn't hurt anything but broken windshields and cars while the car is correct. Yes.Unknown Speaker 1:06:25 Well, that kid from UT, the police kicker whatever I forget what his name is. Thank you came off the team twice for throwing things off and I know what he's doing. He's just trying to water but he's just trying to see if he can hit it. And he but he broke a guy's windshield out he threw a water balloon from the 11th floor of the dorm or stuffed it and he hid it and then they got it for something else he had done and but he got back on the team and they said he'd gotten back in the coach's good but that was the second time he had done that say he's not running is cool.Transcribed by https://otter.ai